Talk:American Idol/Archive 3

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

Archive 5

Mandisa Sales

How come this isn't on the list. She has a album out. Carmen Rasmusen also has an album out.

Initial week sales for Mandisa were only announced today and are now posted. Carmen released an EP a little while ago but has not released an album yet. Her first album is planned for release later this summer, August 28 I believe. MarcoNYC 19:11, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

If no numbers can be found, they aren't on that list as it would be all speculation. CrazyC83 21:39, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

List of band songs

I heard a while ago that you can't sing from certain bands at the audition..if this is true where is a list of bands that are banned?--Poodleman 05:19, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

ABBA for season six?

From the article:

"Simon Cowell reported on the season premiere that week seven's challenge for the contestants will be ABBA songs. Nothing has been said as to whether the original bandmates will help coach or judge that week's competition"

I don't think he was necessarily being serious, I think he was just saying that theoretically, there will be an ABBA week, since the kid was a rocker and probably wouldn't want to sing ABBA. Does anyone else agree, or do you think he was serious? Joltman 12:30, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Justin Timberlake - Season 1 runner up?!

If you go all the way to the bottom of the page, below "Footnotes" it lists Justin Timberlake as the runner-up in season 1 instead of Justin Guarini haha I dont know how to change it or I would. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.234.232.211 (talk) 19:53, 25 January 2007 (UTC).

This problem seems to have been fixed. Thanks anyway. Puffcoat (talk) 21:29, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

William Hung Sales?

I've seen his album sales on other pages as 195,000, not 295,000. I honestly don't know which figure is correct, but 295,000 seems hard to believe. (222.254.189.158 12:46, 1 February 2007 (UTC))

Las Vegas Odds Makers controversy?

In the Controversy section the last sentence currently says that some in the media have speculated that Vegas Odds Makers have exerted influence to keep the prediction sites going, but in reality it has never been legal to bet on Americon Idol or anything of the sort in Las Vegas, so this statement seems foolish. And there is no source sited for the assertion anyway.

facts

The facts on this page about the number of people who watched each season are not all accurate. I have seen different facts on other pages and web sites. Also there are some other things that seem wrong. This page needs to be checked over.\

Unless you can cite the so-called others pages and website, I don't see your claim having any merit, that and you conveniantly decided not to add your signature, I vote to revert back without the warning label.Pumapayam 19:04, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

BLP concerns and tone

There are significant portions of this article that do not meet the tone of an encyclopedia and use weasel words to establish claims that are not referenced by any sourcing. I added a template to the most offensive section (Season 5) where the text includes phrasing like: some think this...and that is widely regarded. If those statements are true then sources need to be provided and the weasel words need to be replaced with something more accurate.

Secondly, I noticed a few claims about contestants and their histories within the text that are unsourced. Someone's brother was arrested? Another person was removed from the competition for XYZ? That's fine since it's all most likely true, but it needs to be sourced or it runs afoul of WP:BLP and should be removed. If I have time later today, I'll redact most of it, but this article needs closer attention to the policies. ju66l3r 17:45, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Season 6 in the UK

The article says it's broadcast on ITV2, but it's also on ITV1 because that's the channel I watch it on (I don't have ITV2)! I'm not sure if I should edit it to say it's broadcast on ITV1 and 2 because I don't know if the ITV1 and 2 broadcasts are the same.

The article also says; 'When the live shows begin next week, the version presented by Cat Deeley is expected to resemble American Idol Extra.' Well, the live shows have begun now - do the UK shows resemble American Idol Extra (I don't know what that is!) as expected?

Thanks. CC 91 16:52, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Victoria Beckham a Judge?

Hi, someone from the UK here. I don't know if there was any coverage that side of the pond, but there were rumours that Simon Fuller wished to replace Paula Abdul as a judge with Victoria Beckham, with Simon Cowell being against it. Now this WAS in a newspaper and might not be true, but if it is, it might be worth posting. Douglasnicol 22:33, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Pssssssh! Like that will happen! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ulysses S Grant (talk • contribs) 22:54, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

A new section: Awards won by American Idol Alumni

With Jennifer Hudson winning an Academy Award, others winning Grammy Awards, and others on Broadway, it would be intersting to have a section with the major awards won (and nominated) to American Idol Alumni.

Season synopsis and post AI career bios are way too long

The synopsis for each season are too obscenely long. Thats what the individual season articles are for. While we are at it, why do these synopsis follow the career of the winners post AI? The notable contestants already have their own articles - most especially the winners and runner-ups. Why is the "Controversies" section so large when AI controversies already have it's own page? This article also completely misses covering the history and development of the show which is pretty fascinating in itself. So much redundancies, so little coverage of the real relevant information on the show. --Eqdoktor 22:40, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

American Idol Sponsorship

Is it worth mentioning that American Idol in the UK is sponsored by Chicago Town Pizza's Humdrum Idol campaign? More details at humdrumidol.com

. Michael 21:25, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Do we really need an entire section on who sponsors the show each season? MarcoNYC 16:54, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

International networks broadcasting American Idol

In the "International networks broadcasting American Idol" section, would it be better to put for the Latin American counties just one bullet saying 'In Latin America, the show screens on Sony Entertainment Television' instead of a bullet for each country AND a bullet saying 'In Latin America...'?

--Andrés 03:47, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Taylor Hicks top selling alumni

I erased the first two albums from Taylor. Just because Carrie has 3 independent albums, and it didn't count in that list.

--Kellie Pickler Fanatic :D 21:52, 14 March 2007 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by KelliePicklerFanatic (talk • contribs) 00:52, 15 March 2007 (UTC).

You can add Carrie's too. I see no reason not to include all albums. --24.154.173.243 23:35, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Restore List of American Idol contestants?

I am now having qualms about List of American Idol contestants, which I proposed to be deleted at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of American Idol contestants. Shortly after that article was deleted, a section in Template:American Idol, called "other notable alumni", popped up. I don't know if the two events are related, but I feel they are. The problem with the section in the template is we are proposing arbitrary criteria for a successful contestant. I could argue anybody who sells records or who has a significant fan base is notable. Here we are imposing our own criteria for notability as opposed to Wikipedia's guideline for notability. A navigational template should have a sense of stability, and the constant addition and deletion of notable contestants gives a headache for those who maintain the template.

I would like to restore List of American Idol contestants, but only after a discussion here. Arguably, anybody who is selected to be shown on TV is notable. The producers like and choose to show a contestant based on how great or how poorly he or she performs. Since the show is popular and is discussed widely, the notoriety gained from even a 3-minute appearance (with name shown) is notable. There is a finite number of contestants who are shown on TV, so maintenance is not a problem. Additional notes on the contestamts (placement, record sales, notoriety, etc.) may also be added with the list, so that it is not a directory. (My own experiences with Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Crew of Sesame Street is also an influence in my decision.) A category doesn't always replace a list. Restoration of the article is not a replacement for the template section, but if the list is available, personal judgments on who is notable can be directed there. So I think if List of American Idol contestants is restored, the other notable alumni section will be unnecessary and not as controversial. Tinlinkin 02:27, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Agreed with the restoration, and full lists of anyone who showed up should be included, however, they should be linked to other media sites to prove their mention. As for those who even get a brief stint, many of them have official websites and news articles, and some even have fan clubs and albums out. The arbitrary criteria should be eliminated. CrazyC83 04:34, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Agree as per above Timclare ^(talk) _{(sign here)} 10:58, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

They should also be sorted in three groups: "Finalists", "Semi-finalists", "Other notables". CrazyC83 14:22, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

The way I would bring back and edit the list is as follows: it will be as a sortable table (see Help:Sorting) with the following columns: "Name", "Season", "Final standing" (finalist, semifinalist, etc.), "Final rank", "Total album sales", and "Notes". The default sorting will be alphabetical by last name. All people who have a valid blue link that does not link to an American Idol season page will automatically be included in the list. As for people who are linked to an AI season page or have a red link, per the AfD discussion, I will respect the sentiment from that discussion and say they should not be included—unless there is an extraordinary circumstance that makes them notable. American Idol#Top-selling American Idol alumni and other relevant sections may be logical choices to merge into the list. Tinlinkin 03:39, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Also, I do not endorse the current version of List of American Idol contestants. The version that should appear when I edit the article is the one as it was from the AfD discussion, so that the original article's history is preserved. On March 26, 2007, there should be enough discussion to the point where I will ask the closing admin of the AfD debate to restore the article. That is the date when I hope to implement my changes. Tinlinkin 03:50, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately, I have to turn around and say I will withdraw my nomination to recreate the article at this time. For one, the article is protected, and I don't think I have a strong argument to recreate it, despite the above. Reviewing the lists of names in each season article, a master list looks like a redundant source of info, which is something I always try to avoid. I Also, I am planning to take a wikibreak soon, and there are other areas of Wikipedia I want to attend to. I apologize for feeling manic about this whole thing, and particularly to CrazyC83, who feels strongly for the list. Category:American Idol participants is sufficent for the purpose of the list. Tinlinkin 05:31, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, the article should definitely be recreated. --164.107.223.217 04:46, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

the full list should be recreated - many "notable" people are missing from the lists [[user: ]]

song

does anybody know the name of the song they used when the top 12 girls of S 6 were presented ?

Not Ur Girl, by Katharine Mcphee

Corey Clark Sales

He has sold 2,500, not 12,500. Someone made a typo. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.229.41.57 (talk) 17:10, 31 March 2007 (UTC).

i hate your guts..sanjaya

I dont believe hating his/her guts has anything to do with this wikipedia article?

Audition improvements

Many of the contestants who initially audition for American Idol have no background singing or performance training and it really shows when they try to sing on tv, and consequently turn off a lot of television viewers. Various online and offline training courses are available top help auditioners to perform better and perhaps allow American Idol to be even more of an appealing singing competition. Sites including http://www.IWannaBeAnIdol.com and http://www.IWannaBeAmericanIdol.com allow enthusiastic internet viewers to become performers by submitting television pilots in different subject matters and singing auditions for broadcast. They are reviewed by music directors and viewers and the best aired as new program series on television channels broadcast by Fantasy-TV, [www.fantasy-tv.com], free internet tv

Fools

Deleted unnessecary posts

Invesco Field?

In the auditions section it says that auditions for American Idol season five took place in Denver at Invesco Field at Mile High. I am pretty positive that they were in the Convention Center and not Invesco. I cannot find something to back this up, so I didn't change it, but I could have sworn I saw the giant hallways from the Convention Center behind the contestants. Change it to Convention center if im right. I might be imagining things though.

Ryan Starr and Kat McPhee Gold?

Those are new entries, but I am not sure either one is accurate.

Katharine McPhee's album is in stores, and it may be reasonable that they shipped an extra 150k copies (with the original pressing apparently being 350,000 copies), but as the threshold for gold is 500k for digital downloads, per the RIAA_certification page, it doesn't seem as Ryan's single My_Religion_(song) would qualify yet at 360k sold.

But, also, according to idolforums ( http://idolforums.com/index.php?showtopic=493650 ), the only listing for Katharine McPhee being Gold is "the official American Idol magazine", and cannot be corroborated by her artists page at Billboard or any other source. This is also a matter of controversy in the editing of Katharine_McPhee_2007_album

Rick 75.4.244.44 06:27, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

There is no reference that Katharine McPhee's album has been certified gold on the RIAA website, on the Billboard Magazine website or even on the News / Blog section of her own official website. If anyone has a cite from a reliable source that would contradict the RIAA's own website, please provide it. The constanting changing of the Sales chart now that Elliott has higher sales is very frustrating. MarcoNYC 22:16, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

JPL Record Sales

JPL has an album, but he is not listed in the Idols sales chart. Does anyone have the information to put him on the list? 71.255.86.80 21:56, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Jon Peter Lewis' album was called Stories From Hollywood released in November 2006 on the Cockaroo Entertainment label. I haven't heard of sales numbers. MarcoNYC 16:42, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Just read that total sales for Mr. Lewis' album as of June 2007 is a whopping 900 as reported in USA Today (http://blogs.usatoday.com/idolchatter/2007/06/weak-week-for-i.html). I guess we have all the info we need to add it to the main article now, just under Ayla Brown. (MarcoNYC 17:36, 29 June 2007 (UTC))

Of course, there are other albums out there with no information available (i.e. Lisa Leuschner's) that may be around there as well... CrazyC83 00:42, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Rehearsal Tapings

Any proof that they show tape rehearsals as part of the song recaps?--68.97.75.170 04:59, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Virtual Elvis

What was the name of the company that helped produce that performance?

Top Selling Albums by Idol Alumni

I think the entire section on top selling alumni is in need of focus and larger discussion considering that record sales are the most direct indication of the effectiveness of the show in finding new musical talent. Many questions have been raised about the inclusiveness and accuracy of this section. Albums released before someone was on the show seem less relevant but does provide a good comparison. And should albums be included when sales are unknown for completeness? What about idols that appears with others, or that only released EPs? Should they all qualify? Because that would impact the inclusion of Constantine, Chris Sligh, Mandisa, Carmen Rasmussen, Corey Clark. MarcoNYC 17:04, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

And what about compilation albums from the show? Should they be listed also? MarcoNYC 17:11, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Generally, it should only be individual or headliner albums (i.e. when a former contestant is a lead singer) and should only be for albums released after appearing on the show (as they were probably far less known when it was released). However, there should be no restrictions on non-major releases (affecting people like Patrick Hall and Lisa Leuschner), EPs and singles. As for show compilations, they should be in a separate list and ranked accordingly. CrazyC83 14:14, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

A separate section for show compilations makes sense. But, if we should only be concerned with releases post-Idol appearance, then we should delete the Taylor Hicks albums currently posted. But still, what should be done about recording pre-Idol but releases post-Idol. For example, Chris Sligh recorded an album with his band Half Past Forever before appearing on Idol but it was released after he was cut from Idol. The same circumstances were present for Constantine Maroulis' band, Pray for the Soul of Betty. Both were lead singers like Chris Daughtry. Finally, what should be done about non-show compilations such as the soundtrack to Dreamgirls which heavily involves Jennifer Hudson. Not sure how to articulate a rule that distinguishes that from other compilations such as the "Now" series which includes singles by Kelly Clarkson and Daughtry. MarcoNYC 21:53, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Pre-Idol recordings should not count in any of the statistics. They are not listed in Idol season pages and they do not directly reflect their appearance on the show (although it is possible they could have seen a sales "bump" during or immediately after their appearance). CrazyC83 00:46, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

The section on top selling alumni states that the sales totals are US only. Kelly Clarksons sales total of 8,800,000 and 9x platinum is her worldwide total and she is the only one with ww sales credit, although others have also sold overseas. It should read 5.7 million and 5x platinum on the RIAA website http://www.riaa.com/gp/database/search_results.asp

according to a recent article by Ken Barnes of USA Today.

"Taylor sold 1,700 (2,000 the previous week) for a total of 673,000. Ruben sold 1,000 (down from 1,200) for a total of 223,000. Clay sold 600 (same as the last couple of weeks) and is at 509,000. Kelly sold 5,900 (up from 4,900 and enough to rank around No. 129 on the chart if it weren't ineligible by Billboard rules). Her total is 5.7 million." http://blogs.usatoday.com/idolchatter/2007/05/gives_back_gene.html#more

AllDone 15:29, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Please include the 2007 tallies for the American Idol Alumni section. Kelly Clarkson's Breakaway Album has sold an additional 146,000 units in the year 2007 thus far. This is not reflected in the current total under the American Idol Alumni section. Source: http://www.americanidolworship.com/ Roboticgamer 06:09, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Robotgamer, americanidolworship.com is a fan run blog. It does not meet the criteria of a verifiable and credible source and it is not NPOV. Your edits will be reverted until a credible source is cited.

AllDone 17:06, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

• MarcoNYC said,"But, if we should only be concerned with releases post-Idol appearance, then we should delete the Taylor Hicks albums currently posted." This is a good point. If Taylor Hicks' pre-idol CDs are to remain posted then other Idols' pre-idol releases should also be included. Clay Aiken recorded and released 2 CDs, Look What Love Has Done and Redefined, for sale pre season2 and they were sold during his tenure as an American Idol contestant.

Clay also recorded an EP, All Is Well, and RCA released it on November 28th 2006. This should also be posted since it is a post-Idol release. AllDone 03:32, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Aren't albums that sell 500,000 Gold and 1 Million Platinum? Why are some albums that fall below these numbers listed as Gold and Platinum. Fantasia's second album is listed as selling more than McPhee's, and yet how is McPhee's Gold and Fantasia's isn't? Neither sold 500,000 copies, so how could McPhee's be Gold? --164.107.223.217 04:48, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

The RIAA certifications are based on unit shipments, not on total end-consumer sales. If an album is selling at (or is expected to sell at) a brisk pace, more albums are typically shipped, in anticipation of the albums being sold. As for Kat vs. Fantasia, Kat's album hasn't been around as long, so I'm not surprised that it's certified gold with only 321,000 sales. That said, an album can't receive a certain certification until the record label applies for it, so for all we know, Fantasia might already be there. Caeculus 04:52, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Somebody needs to restore Taylor's first two albums! :( --164.107.223.217 04:01, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

I've corrected the US only totals for Bo Bice's album which according to "the official Nielsen SoundScan" reports is at 688,000 (as reported on the USA Today site at http://blogs.usatoday.com/idolchatter/2007/06/answering-a-few.html). I believe the previous total of over 800,000 is for worldwide sales which is inconsistent with all the other sales numbers on the chart. MarcoNYC 17:28, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Someone (or several somebodies) keep posting Bo's "Right Thing" album with over 800K even though there is no citation that that number refers to US (only) sales. I give up. Instead of looking to Wiki and citing to sources with indicia of reliability such as that referenced by USA Today, I'm just going to look to USA Today in the first instance. So many Wiki editors have agendas that do not include accuracy. (MarcoNYC 05:31, 7 July 2007 (UTC))

!!!!!!!!Why do people keep reverting other people's updates to the album sales back to figures that are months old? I've tried to update it twice, and five other people have tried in the past month and like 3 or 4 different people keep undoing everything.

Delete the last Howard Stern entry in Controversy section?

The Howard Stern accusation that travel arrangement and crew sent to hometown were made only for LaKisha is almost certain to be wrong, since all the final three need to go home for filming of their homecoming which will be broadcast on the top 3 weeks. All this needed to be prepared well in advance. Check the news and see the pictures of the top 3 contestants at their respective hometowns. This site should not spread unfounded rumours and nonsense.

Idol Gives Back is nominated for deletion

Just to inform everyone that this article is up for deletion. Happy editing! Dalejenkins 18:06, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Updates

Does anyone update this article on a regular basis?

Kelli Pickler has sold more that 526, 000 records now its up to like 700, 000

Kelly sold 7,800 to bring her total to 5.7 million

Carrie Underwood's with a 29% increase to 57,000 units sold, for a total of 5.43 million.

Chris Daughtry with a 33% sales increase to 67,000 last week, bringing his total to 2.48 million.

Taylor with a 75% increase to 2,800 for a total of 677,000.

Kellie Pickler with a 22% sales increase to 7,800, to bring her total to 526,000.

Clay had a 60% increase with a total of 511,000

Fantasia had a 21% sales increase to 7,100. Her total's up to 482,000.

Katharine with a 11% increase to 5,500 for a total of 322,000.

Ruben sold 1,000, same as last week, and is at 225,000 total.

Elliott had a 30% increase to 11,000 this week. His total is 192,000.

Bucky down 1% to 17,000 and his total is 119,000.

Paris Bennett joins the Idol chart crew entering the chart at 133 with 6,300 copies.

http://blogs.usatoday.com/idolchatter/2007/05/idols_on_a_sale.html AllDone 22:32, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

This Billboard/Reuters article dated 1/16/07 gave some rounded sales figures for some of the AI alums.

"Idol" veterans face life in the real world

http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=musicnews&storyid=2007-01-16t050339z_01_n12329492_rtridst_0_music-idol-dc.xml

Clay: - A Thousand Different Ways: 489,000 - Merry Christmas With Love: 1.4 million - Measure Of A Man: 2.8 million

Justin Guarini: 143,000

Fantasia: - Fantasia: 482,000 - Free Yourself: 1.7 million

Ruben Studdard: - Soulful: 1.8 million - I Need An Angel: 467,000 - The Return: 187,000

AllDone 04:12, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

• Billboard 200

     10 06 26 Daughtry, Daughtry 51,019 66,782 -24 2,527,001

     11 08 79 Carrie Underwood, Some Hearts 46,801 56,723 -17 5,481,303
 
     20 67 09 Elliott Yamin, Elliott Yamin 25,380 10,764 136 217,040
   
     56 44 05 Bucky Covington, Bucky Covington 12,119 17,392 -30 131,069

     91 93 23 Fantasia, Fantasia 7,894 8,579 -8 482,000
 
     100 108 29 Kellie Pickler, Small Town Girl 7,057 7,784 -9 533,123
    
     186 149 16 Katharine McPhee, Katharine McPhee 4,240 5,498 -23 325,824

AllDone 21:46, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Melinda?

Idol is completely wrong. America has chosen Blake, who can't sing half as well as Melinda. I have decided; that I won't watch the show anymore because Melinda was evidently the best one there. I strongly oppose America's decision. Please don't talk abbout it! Meldshal42 11:34, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

I completly agree with you...so I'm all in for Jordin Ladybug91090 15:08, 23 May 2007 (UTC)Ladybug91090

Purpose of the show is incorrect

"The program seeks to discover the best young singer in the country..." - When have they said the person had to be young? And they've also stated that singing is only a part of being an Idol. Blake is not getting through by being a singer, which is the weakest part of his repertoire. I would delete "young" and change singer to singer/performer or something like that. NjtoTX 12:00, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

There is an age cut-off of 30 years old. Is that considered young? --luckymustard 12:40, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Actually it's 28. Have to be 28 on August 1st in the year that you audition.

Oops, my bad - should have read further into the article. I'm new to the show. That stinks. NjtoTX 23:34, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

--Woohookitty^Woohoo! 14:19, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

I feel the show is showing Americans as they really are - racists. Melinda is the best singer but was voted out because she is pure black. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 172.209.145.71 (talk • contribs).

OK first of this is not a place for comments but since you said something i might as well say something back. Im sop sick of the conspiracy theories that make no sense. The whole damn country isn't white and every one's not racist. Melinda was a great singer but she was boring, end of story. Don't forget that Jordin is half black. If America was racist wouldn't the pure white guy would of won.Rosario lopez 00:32, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

some idiot put this in:

"However, during the televised episodes of these shows, people normally only see either people who are flaming gay or just suck, because it makes better TV than someone who actually has a speck of talent. Paula Abdul is a drunken whore, and Simon Cowell needs an enema or two to loosen up."

but it's protected, so I can't take it out.

Exposing American racism? Woah, woah woah. One word. Fantasia. All she ever did was jump around the stage and scream. she cant sing. Why was she elected? 2 things. She had alot of charisma, and she was black.

---
This chat page is to discuss the ARTICLE, not your crazy conspiracy theories. Please leave that for your personal blogs. Joe dawg 9 (talk) 03:50, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I totally agree, but just want to add, the racism thing could go the other way. America isn't all white. American Idol is a contest for pure talent. If someone gets voted off because of their race, thats too bad, if they're really a good singer they don't need to win american idol to be"good." They could get a record deal somewhere else. (70.94.55.228 (talk) 23:31, 22 April 2008 (UTC))

Ratings

I'm curious as to where the sources for the US television ratings chart are,because it doesn't link a source and the Nielsen Ratings website did not show that much information about ratings for perticular shows. Rodrigue 23:39, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Bottom 3 charts

I added in the bottom 3 charts from each season under each of their respective synopsises. I did this because the main articles for the other countries' Idol shows put the charts on the main page as well as the individual season pages. Its important that the articles for each country's show is consistent with the rest.

Prize

I seem to recall something about way back when it started, that upon winning you were guaranteed something like 2 albums and a movie, and after that it depended on how well you sold. Can anyone verify what, in fact, is in the contract they offer you for winning? All I could find in the article was that you give up all rights to sign with anyone else. Kuronue 08:20, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Im pretty sure you get a Ford, a bunch of money (not sure how much), and a record deal.

Ayla Brown sales

Her sales numbers are incorrect. She has sold 3,380 sales in places that can track them, as well as an addition 6,800 albums at private events and concerts, bringing the total number of album sales to 10,180.

It's a good album and the sales numbers don't really reflect how good it is. But we should post the official SoundScan numbers consistantly for all artists on this chart which, at least for now, is the most verifiable baseline we have. Most likely all the artists have sold more through non-reporting channels or worldwide sales but that is difficult to measure. So Ayla's numbers are at 2,700 as reported in USA Today. (http://blogs.usatoday.com/idolchatter/2007/06/weak-week-for-i.html). (MarcoNYC 22:30, 29 June 2007 (UTC))

Clay Aiken's Debut CD is Certified Triple Platinum

To prevent the appearance of a revert war. These are the sources of the triple platinum status of Measure Of A Man.

Access Hollywood August, 3, 2006 is certified triple-platinum, [1]

Cape Gazette Thu, May 20, 2004 Triple platinum-selling recording artist Clay Aiken [2]

CBS News July 14, 2004 his debut album, Measure Of A Man, which has already gone triple platinum [3]

RCA Records Press Release August 3 2006 has been certified triple platinum [4]

Clay's myspace also mentions it. 2003s MEASURE OF MAN triple platinum and counting [5]

AllDone 09:18, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Top Selling Albums by Idol Alumni

This section is a mess. There are totals for World Wide Sales added but the source is a mystery and the numbers are rounded up or down willy nilly. As useful as it may be to have those totals, there needs to be some responsiblity in editing and if it isn't properly sourced then they need to be removed.

There is a push to credit Taylor with 2 pre-idol CDs. I understand that it was not agreed upon that pre-idol releases are to be listed. Clay Aiken also has 2 pre-idol CDs. Someone also deleted Clay Aiken's EP "All Is Well" that was released in Nov 2006. That CD obviously qualifies because it is a post Idol release.

Who looks after the integrity of the article page and who is responsible to clean it up?

AllDone 12:14, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

I noticed the following for Clay:

A Thousand Different Ways (September 19, 2006) 515,000 Gold Peak: #2 500,000 WW

How can the Worldwide sales be LESS than the U.S. sales? Best, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles^Tally-ho! 02:05, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Academy Awards??

I know Jennifer Hudson won an Academy Award but I dont think it shuold be under here. Yes she was an American Idol contestant but the whole American Idol show is about vocal talent not acting. The Academy Award's are for acting and therefore should be removed because it was nothing to do with Jennifer's vocal talent.

The section is about major awards, not just major singing awards. As well as that, Jennifer's role required a lot of singing which she also did for the album 74.229.215.99 (talk) 00:50, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Reality TV star noteability guidelines

Hello, I've just created a seperate page proposing guidlines for noteability of Reality TV contestants and if they should have their own articles. I did this due to the mass number of articles being created and deleted on these subjects in recent months, and confusion among editors if they are in fact noteable or not. You can read this here. All edits and comments on the talk page are welcome. Thanks, Dalejenkins | 18:30, 23 August 2007 (UTC).

RIAA Certification for Clarkson's Albums

There is no citation that Kelly Clarkson's album, My December, has been certified gold by the RIAA despite the fact that actual sales (as measured by Nielsen SoundScan) exceed 500,000. The July press release from the RIAA did not list it, the searchable database on the RIAA website does not list it, and it is not listed in the list of certifications for the months of July or August as noted on USA Today's Listen Up column. It is also not noted as Gold in the Billboard chart listings. I have only seen one particular editor who consistently updates the Top Selling Idol Alumni chart to add a Gold certification for My December without comment or citation. Does anyone have a reliable source we can cite that contradicts the RIAA, Billboard or USA Today websites? And if not, should we care that it is inaccurately noted as Gold certified when there is every belief that that will change soon. (MarcoNYC 08:13, 27 August 2007 (UTC)).

The only source for Clarkson's Thankful album being certified triple-platinum is here on Wikipedia. The RIAA and Billboard websites all list Thankful as double platinum AND selling under 3 million when considering US sales alone. Does anyone have a source, other than Wikipedia, to cite to support the statement that Thankful has been certified triple-platinum and has sold over 3 million copies in the US alone? (MarcoNYC 14:54, 27 August 2007 (UTC)).

Jasmine Trias US Album Sales

According to USA Today citing Nielsen Soundscan numbers, the Jasmine Trias album has sold 14K in the US (see, USA Today for July 2007; http://blogs.usatoday.com/idolchatter/2007/07/kelly-crashes-b.html) (see also, USA Today for November 2006; http://blogs.usatoday.com/idolchatter/2006/11/idol_sales_stan.html). Months earlier, MTV indicated 12K for Jasmine Trias. (see, http://www.mtv.com/bands/a/american_idol/ai5_feature_060307/index.jhtml). If the USA Today, MTV or Soundscan number are incorrect and the totals should be changed, please include a citation that lists a source for US Sales. Citing sources is a good thing (see, Wikipedia:Citing_sources, Wikipedia:Verifiability) especially in light of conflicting information. (MarcoNYC 02:41, 28 August 2007 (UTC))

Consensus for Thankful and My December's RIAA certification

I keep noticing the same one or two people changing Thankful and My December's RIAA certification without citing a source. I am trying to find a consensus for the CDs' RIAA Certification. According to RIAA's website Thankful is certified 2xPlatinum and My December is not certified. I cannot find anything through Google that says otherwise beside Wikipedia and fan message boards without any article/web page cited. Aspects 16:47, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

I brought up the identical issue a few topics above. Good luck. BTW: Someone recently changed the RIAA Certification for Kelly's single "A Moment Like This" to platinum when the RIAA website only lists it at gold. (MarcoNYC 18:21, 13 September 2007 (UTC))

Top-selling American Idol alumni

Why it's top 12? I know that Elliott and Katharine have a big base of fans, but they are not top 10, so they aren't the top sellers. I'm a big fan of Bucky Covington and he is at #13. So, i think that if #11, 12 are in the TOP SELLERS, why Bucky couldn't be there? (KPFanatic) 23:19, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Actually the first table is not a specific top number. "This first list only includes contestants with at least one certified album, and the totals do not include pre-Idol recordings." I think that is a pretty clear cut determination of the better selling contestants than the rest of the group. Currently it should be the top eleven ending with Elliott Yamin. I will be switching it back to the way it was because Katharine McPhee's record has not yet reached Gold status. Aspects (talk) 03:14, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Major award–winning American Idol alumni

I think that unless a person submitted themselves/received a nomination but in the end did not win, they should have a N/A instead of a zero. 74.229.215.99 (talk) 00:57, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Please tell me what is up with everyone singing5 notes for every true note written?

Why doesn't anyone, or can't anyone just sing the melody of any song, note for note? Is it bcause no ones knows how to read music, but can only feel it? So we choose to create an Idol based on how well a young person can feel? Is it impossble to sing each note, perfectly? Or a song, note by note, perfectly, as written? Why are there so many filler notes inside the melody? What is up wit that? Please explain it to me, for I am really in the dark about this. Thank you, StarBird —Preceding unsigned comment added by Heaven***Scent (talk • contribs) 03:13, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

The purpose of the competition is not only to show your skill as a singer/performer, but to be able to have your own style. Something the judges have really stressed this year (Season 7) is that they want the contestants to be U N I Q U E ! Hope this helps. 75.181.43.225 (talk) 22:14, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Just to add one point - as AI is a singing competition, contestants often feel the need to show off their vocal talents when they choose songs that are not particularly difficult. Adding melisma (runs) is an easy way to do that, and in past years it has been highly successful. The above correspondent is right, however: in S7, the focus of the show has changed subtly but significantly to focus more on interpretation and musicianship than pure vocal skills. Hence, Syesha Mercado is strugging to stay afloat while Brooke White is a front-runner. 71.125.152.43 (talk) 20:07, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Very long article

This article is very long and hard to scroll through and find what you're looking for. I think parts of it should be split out into different articles, such as Top-selling American Idol alumni, American Idol Hot 100 singles, and the season synopses that could be shortened, as there are seperate articles for each season anyway. Any thoughts? Puffcoat (talk) 01:35, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

This article is very long. Yeah, I think so. But all of the information is helping everyone. And all of those data given has references. Thanks. CMejia 09:56 19 January 2008 {UTC} —Preceding comment was added at 01:56, 19 January 2008 (UTC) I've used the Philippine Time, im a Filipino

Yes, but it is hard to find what you're looking for, despite the fact that there is a table of contents; I think it could be made more effective by splitting some parts out into different articles. Another thing is people with slow internet connections, it may take a while to load, even though most of the article is text. Yeah, all of the data (most of it anyway) given has references, but I don't think it should taken off Wikipedia, it should just be moved into a new article, to shorten the main American Idol article. None of the data on the pages now will be inaccesible if we do in fact split out some parts. Just my opinion. Puffcoat (talk) 16:44, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

That makes sense to me. -- ArglebargleIV (talk) 16:46, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks... Any more thoughts? I would like more opinions before I take on such a big task. Puffcoat (talk) 22:33, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Ok! I think, it's up to you. Just don't remove the referenced data. CMejia 12:26 20 January 2008 {UTC} —Preceding comment was added at 04:26, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

OK, I have just moved all of the content from American Idol#Top-selling American Idol alumni to a new article: Top-selling American Idol alumni. The main American Idol is still very long, and I will be working on shortening it some more, and the new article I just made needs some cleaning up, which I will also be doing. Puffcoat (talk) 19:41, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

As before, I have moved all content from American Idol#American Idol Hot 100 singles to a brand new article: American Idol Hot 100 singles. Just to let you guys know. Puffcoat (talk) 20:53, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) Sorry to add this a bit late, but I while ago I was considering shortening this article and came up with an example but for some reason I decided to let it die. Here is the page User:Aspects/American Idol. Feel free to change it or ask questions. One of the main things I did is what Puffcoat actually did by getting rid of the discographies from the main page into their own article. I kept a lot of the rules but deleted the list of cities since they were already in the season pages and did not need to be in the main page. I severely reduced the synopsis of each season since they have their own page (this is probably the extreme version that most people would not like.) I got rid of all the bottom three charts since the information was already on the season pages. And when I first did this in October obviously some information has changed but let me know what you think. Aspects (talk) 16:01, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Very good, I think that could work. Shortening your International networks broadcasting American Idol section at User:Aspects/American Idol would probably be a good idea. I think the season synopses could be a bit longer than they are on your page, because that part does seem a little shallow, but still a lot of stuff could be taken out of the real article. Good version though, I think I'll revise it some more if you don't mind. Puffcoat (talk) 23:36, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Idol viewership

1.9 million viewers for Idol's series debut? This sounds too unbelievable to be true. Can this possibly be verified? 70.101.182.149 (talk) 15:41, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Order of contestants until they are eliminated

Season 7 contestants are arranged in alphabetical order (first name). Do not change the order. When someone is voted off, then they get moved to the appropriate place. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.239.117.174 (talk) 02:01, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

List of Winning Songs from Songwriter Competition

Please someone add a list of the winning "Coronation" songs, such as Time Of My LIfe etc. in an easy to read list or table

Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.192.51.162 (talk) 03:23, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Major award–winning American Idol alumni

Should this table be ordered by # of achievements or by season like it is right now? I'd like to make it in order of achievements but post your opinions and reasons. Danman111111 (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 07:58, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Why is David Cook listed in this table when there are no awards listed? All the columns after his name contain zeroes. I'd think we'd only want to list alumni that have actually won an award listed in the table. Jmac1962 (talk) 21:25, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Country Music Awards and CMT Music Awards?

Should the chart really include these genre of awards? I thought the point of major awards was to include ceremonies that honored several genres of music from Pop to Rock to R&B to Country. If the chart includes specialized award ceremonies for Country music specifically than the NAACP Image Awards should be included as well, as American Idol winners have also won at that specialized award ceremony. The inclusion of specialized ceremonies only produces a bloated chart of major award wins. I motion that the Country Music Awards and CMT Music Awards be removed from that chart.TJ 23:34, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Personally, I feel this article is way too long. Therefore, any removal of spurious information (especially if it's covered in a sub-article, which the awards are) is a Good Thing(tm). I agree with your reasoning. I would also ask if the column for Academy Awards needs to be there — yes, it's 'cross-genre', but it's for film, not music, and only one person has won it. Thoughts? Hermione1980 14:57, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

I am for removing them because there the three major music awards are already covered in the table. On the Academy Award issue, I could be persuaded either way. For its benefit, it is the major film award, was for a singing performance in a musical, has not lead to more movie awards in the table and does not add that much space. For its negative, only one contestant is represented and this is a long article. I would probably fill about the same way if one of the alumni won an Emmy or a Tony. Aspects (talk) 20:02, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Poof. I also went ahead and removed the Academy Awards per your reasoning (only one contestant is represented). Hermione1980 20:12, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

External Links cleanup

As noted in the eval report, the External Links section of this article needs a major cleanup. (Full disclosure in advance: I'm one of the team of people who put together the AI Performance Database in the links, so I have a rooting interest in that one. I'll make a case for it below, but because it's there, I won't clean up the links myself without discussion.) Suggested changes:

• American Idol Official Website (owned by Fox Interactive Media) - KEEP, OBVIOUS
• American Idol SMS Voting Statistics - MOVE TO REFERENCES, this discusses one particular instance of text voting, and the statistics are very much outdated.
• TVWeek.com Producer Shop Talk With Exec Producer Nigel Lythoe - REMOVE, outdated and not encyclopedic
• American Idol TV Listings on TVGuide.com - KEEP. A bit marginal because it includes a fan forum, but the episode listings are a legit reference I guess.
• Contestant Interviews on Fox News Radio - REMOVE, the feed is currently broken, and even when it was up, it was fanstuff, nothing encyclopedic
• American Idol gallery at cnn.com - REMOVE, non-encyclopedic gossip and fashion photos
• American Idol (Photos, Airing, Rankings, Videos) at Yahoo TV - REMOVE. This was once useful for media clips and the like, but now it's just another cheerleading fansite. Better fan gateway pages are available if WP wants to go that route; e.g. SirLinksalot's AI page.
• Complete American Idol song/performance/contestant database at WhatNotToSing.com - KEEP. The database was set up to supplement the limited information in WP. It contains a searchable, drill-down database of every AI performance, cross-referenced by season, episode, contestant, song, and artist; it's free, open, and noncommercial; it's not a fansite or forum or wiki; it includes informatoin, statistics and analysis far broader and deeper than what WP can maintain; and it's updated continually. The DB includes links back to WP where appropriate (e.g., for detailed contestant profiles.)
• American Idol on iTunes (Song Downloads, Videos, Podcasts) at iTunes.com - KEEP. Marginal, because it's a commercial site and really doesn't meet WP guidelines. However, it would seem to me that a number of people would visit WP specifically to find where they can purchase performance clips, so we might keep it as a courtesy. Eipiphi (talk) 20:08, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Keep the xlinks to the official site and the database. Make the iTunes link a footnote from the main body of the article. Delete everything else. - Dpiranha (talk) 18:23, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Any more opinions on this before I make the suggested changes to the Links section? Eipiphi (talk) 17:36, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Episode Count

Just thought I'd put it out there that our running total of episodes is 7 off of the official count by FOX. According to the FOX website description for the April 2 results show, it is the 250th episode while it would be 257 based on our count. I'm not sure if this is because the total is wrong or the article counts something that Fox did not, but I am not qualified to give an accurate count. If anyone is able to pinpoint these discrepancies or get a verifiable count please let me know. It seems that other sites like TV.com and IMDB are also at odds with Fox and each other. Drew1jg (talk) 02:06, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Removed Summary Opinion

I removed the bit in the beginning that stated that the show is probably the most important show in history or whatever equally pretentious opinion they had in there. Yes, it had a reference, but it is an opinion, and does not belong in the summary of an encyclopedia article. Please discuss before reposting it. Chexmix53 (talk) 19:28, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Kristen Holt

I added that Kristen Holt was supposed to be the new co-host for Season 2. I didn't add this in the article, but I know that Dunkleman quit because he didn't like Seacrest, and then they hired a new host (Holt). She acted, and was presented as the new co-host but Seacrest wasn't happy with this, and to keep him, the decided to just present Holt as a special correspondent. She wasn't even told, she was watching the show when it premiered that season and saw that most of her footage had been cut. There were shots with her and Ryan standing next to each other as co-hosts, and she was cut out of the shots, and all you were able to see was her arm. I sourced reality tv world, but I know there is a better source out there for this. Chexmix53 (talk) 19:45, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Paula Abdul

If she is still creating music and performing wouldn't the word "former" be incorrect? -blueeyedmaiden —Preceding unsigned comment added by Blueeyedmaiden (talk • contribs) 18:37, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree. I am going to change it. Chexmix53 (talk) 02:24, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Billy Joel?

When was Billy Joel a mentor? I don't remember him from any season. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.206.252.72 (talk) 02:32, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Billy Joel was a mentor for his theme week for the top seven in American Idol (season 2). Aspects (talk) 02:43, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Why?

Why is David Cook under Jason Castro in the top three order? it's not fair at all D: —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.251.109.213 (talk) 03:35, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

• Alphabetical order -- "Cook" comes after "Castro". -- ArglebargleIV (talk) 03:43, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

April 30th Results

Not once was it stated that Syesha was in the Bottom 2, thus, it shouldn't be stated in the article. The usual stool routine wasn't performed, and Ryan never said that Syesha was in the bottom 2, only that one of the two girls would go home. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.47.36.234 (talk) 18:14, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

This also applies to the May 7th results. There was not a mention of a Bottom 2 either week. If you still feel strongly that there was a Bottom 2 please leave a message here so we can discuss it without having a constant edit war. Aspects (talk) 19:25, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Lock This Page!

People keep adding results before they're announced, and they're writing irrelevant messages at the top of the page. —Preceding comment added by DJ Arnold (talk) 19:56, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I looked this page up last night to get information on past contestants WHILE I WAS WATCHING THE SHOW, and the winner was already posted! Would you mind considering West Coast people and update this site the day after the show? Thank you! Hollielol (talk) 19:27, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, the first poster in this thread was taking issue with the winner being added before there was a winner. That has been happening for several days. It is playful vandalism, but still vandalism. As for Hollielol's request, that would be virtually impossible to enforce. Once information becomes fact and it can be sourced, it's fine to add here. West Coasters must know that going virtually anywhere on the internet after the AI winner was announced would have spoiled it... Gwynand | Talk•Contribs 19:33, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Winner of Idol 2008

That my friends is David Cook —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.74.206.124 (talk) 02:04, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Album sales

Numerous sales figures for albums of Idol contestants and winners state that the figure is "to date," without identifying what that date is. "To date" without any explanation wrongly suggests "as of the time you are reading this." So these need to be rooted down to a specific context. I noticed a lot of these throughout the article. Postdlf (talk) 14:40, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Tables

These tables could use an update. They look pretty gross. Personally, I think they have extremely poor colour schemes, and the borders and spacing are sort of atrocious. Does anyone else agree that these tables could use some formatting? Personally I think that web colours like "lime" shouldn't ever be used in tables, unless describing the colour lime I suppose. It's very tacky and distracting on a page. I've already formatted all of the tables once but someone reverted so I'm writing here to hopefully get some support if you agree with me. Here is an example of what I had done:

Before:

Date	Bottom Three
July 17	EJay Day	Jim Verraros	Nikki McKibbin
July 24	A.J. Gil	Ryan Starr	Christina Christian
July 31	Ryan Starr (2)	Justin Guarini	Nikki McKibbin (2)
August 7	Christina Christian (2)	R. J. Helton	Nikki McKibbin (3)
	Bottom Two
August 14	R. J. Helton (2)	Nikki McKibbin (4)
August 21	Tamyra Gray	Nikki McKibbin (5)
	Final Three
August 28	Nikki McKibbin (6)
September 4	Justin Guarini (1)	Kelly Clarkson

After:

Date	Bottom Three
July 17	EJay Day	Jim Verraros	Nikki McKibbin
July 24	A.J. Gil	Ryan Starr	Christina Christian
July 31	Ryan Starr (2)	Justin Guarini	Nikki McKibbin (2)
August 7	Christina Christian (2)	R. J. Helton	Nikki McKibbin (3)
	Bottom Two
August 14	R. J. Helton (2)	Nikki McKibbin (4)
August 21	Tamyra Gray	Nikki McKibbin (5)
	Final Three
August 28	Nikki McKibbin (6)
September 4	Justin Guarini (1)	Kelly Clarkson

What do you guys think? _{TKGD2007|TALK} 04:16, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Love it Frazzler9 (talk) 19:50, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Rewrite - input requested

I've taken the liberty of revising this page. My proposed revision is located at User:Hermione1980/American Idol (for comparison purposes, here is the diff between the original and my rewrite). Let me know what you think. If no one objects by approximately 00:00 UTC on Thursday January 8, I'll roll any intervening edits into the rewrite and post it. Hermione1980 18:59, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Oh, and in the revision, I went ahead and changed the color scheme to match what was proposed here—it really makes the tables easier to read and better to look at. Does anyone disagree? Hermione1980 02:49, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Well, I pasted in the rewrite. Please discuss any issues here. Hermione1980 01:17, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

I reverted your edit due to the fact you made so many little changes in one massive edit without giving an edit summary that explains the changes or here on the talk page. With so many little changes made all over the article, it is hard to see in the difference what you were trying to actually achieve. I think the article can be pared down, but we need to be able to explain why we are making the edits we make. Aspects (talk) 17:14, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Works for me. Would've been nice if you could have said that before I did the edit, but ok. Here goes part 1. (This will be in stages because I don't live on-wiki. :-)

In the infobox:

1. I changed DioGuardi's dates from "from 2009" to "2009-present" to match the formatting of the other judges.
2. I changed the Locations to match what actually occurs in the show. Initial auditions' locations vary each season. The other changes in this section are formatting only - inserting a line break between each stage for clarity's sake, placing the title of each audition section in front of the location, etc.

Are these changes acceptable? Hermione1980 19:04, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

CTV

Isn't american idol aired on CTV not fox? I go onto the fox channel when it's on and it says "ctv" in the bottom corner. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.176.46.3 (talk) 07:15, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

You are being "simsubbed". Simsubbing means "simultaneous substitution". So if the Cdn channel is broadcasting American program, American channel will be subbed by Cdn channel. That's the rule. Kjinho213 (talk) 04:38, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Restructuring question

Please compare sections 1-2.3 in this article to sections 1.1-1.4 on my draft. Thoughts? Is the structure okay as it is currently, or would it be cleaner and more readable to combine the content into subheadings under one second-level heading? Hermione1980 00:33, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Why is it so hard to get an answer to anything on this page? Hermione1980 15:19, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Media sponsorship section question

Why is the Media sponsorship section named "Media sponsorship" rather than "Corporate sponsorship"?Kayeloh (talk) 14:48, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

In each city? In which city?

In the Initial auditions paragraph, the phrase "in each city" is used twice, without any antecedents. No explanation is ever given as to how many cities there are, how they are chosen, or when the auditions are held. Mamarazzi (talk) 06:26, 5 February 2009 (UTC)N

seperate article American Idol seasons

I think this would take a lot of weight out of this article and would be a good summary page for anyone just looking at individual season results. --Levineps (talk) 15:16, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

I don't think that's necessary, personally. We already have each season broken into separate articles. Summaries of each need to remain in this article, for context. I'm in the process of shortening the synopses, so hopefully that should make the page more manageable. Just my two cents. Hermione1980 15:31, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Presume the process got bogged down, because the season synopses are hideously too long. This should be one of the first steps taken to bring the article back to GA-status. --McDoobAU93 (talk) 03:34, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

Current event, infobox, ratings box, oh my!

Um...the number of tables, one on top of the other, are causing the [edit] links to do strange things. It's also shifting the contestants table to the left of the TV ratings table, which is causing the text of the article to look pretty crappy. Anyone got a solution? 74.176.227.189 (talk) 23:45, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Selection process

I've done a major rewrite of the audition process/rules/etc. section. I realize that this may not be what everyone thinks is the best way to present this information, so if it isn't good, just revert and tell me what's wrong with it. Cheers, Hermione1980 22:22, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

ratings confusion

Am I crazy or does the ratings section contradict itself? The text below the table states that ratings have declined since the sixth season, in particular from the sixth to the seventh. However, the table shows an increase in ratings between those years. What's the deal? 152.23.202.92 (talk) 06:05, 9 April 2009 (UTC) april 9 2009

Nymichael (talk) 04:53, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

New table

I have chosen to create a new elimination table. This table is better as the colour scheme is more distinct which makes it easier to label contestants placements in the btm3... Frazzler9 (talk) 23:39, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Confused

Wouldnt the talent every season diminish as the best singers are suposeofly chosen every year? Is there any sources to suggest declining quality in the contestants? thanks 70.50.223.226 (talk) 20:45, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

elimination chart

I was thinking instead of having those crappy elimination tables we could use the elimination chart from top 12/13 onwards. Frazzler9 (talk) 17:12, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

This makes it look more professional and neater and easier to read. Frazzler9 (talk) 17:20, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

Since your changes to the tables have been reverted by two different editors, per WP:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle you need to gain consensus from other editors here on the talk page instead of continuing an edit war by continually reverting before making the changes again.

Using the shades of pink instead of grey to me does not make it that much more distinct and is actually more distracting in my opinion. To me, it seems like you want to add color just for colors-sake to make the article have seem more interesting. I am against using the top 12/13 elimination charts because they add a lot of kB to an already too large article. Aspects (talk) 17:59, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

I don't like the original elimination table as it looks very tacky. The borders inbetween each bottom 3 box look wrong. My colour scheme makes the colours stand out more as there isn't much difference between the shades of grey on the original elimination table. I'm not just adding colour for colours sake. The tables actually need updating as they look old. I would actually be in favour of using the elimination chart from top 12/13 onwards as I think it's more intelligent. Whats the problem with having a page with a lot of KB? Frazzler9 (talk) 11:47, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

You express a lot of opinions but do not fully explain them: What makes the tables look tacky? How do the borders look wrong? How exactly do the tables look old? I do not understand how you can think shades of gray are tacky, but shades of pink are not. Please see WP:SIZE for problems with large pages. Aspects (talk) 10:43, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

OK... The individual boxes which contain the name of the contestant are unequal in length which really does not blend the borders very well. Also it really doesn't blend as the bottom 3 contestant has a white background which makes it look like the borders just end especially when there is no outer border for the table. Each individual colour doesn't look as far apart as it should. The pink colours are more ranged in difference which puts across the point that there is an eliminated contestant, a bottom 2 and bottom 3 Frazzler9 (talk) 15:27, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

semi final chart

I have made a semi final chart on the season 8 bit on this article. I know it might need a bit of improvement but I think it looks good.Frazzler9 (talk) 16:01, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

I am going to delete the charts based on my opinion that they seem unnecessary and added more space to an already large article. Once again you seem to be adding color to charts just to have color on the page. Aspects (talk) 10:43, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

The pink was for the girls, blue for the guys and yellow for the wildcard contestants as they weren't chosen by gender. 92.7.28.16 (talk) 12:32, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

colors on main page charts

(copied from my talk page to include more people in the consensus gathering) Want to discuss this here so an edit war doesn't ensue. For the gray colors in the bottom 3 charts on the main American Idol page, the light gray box isn't necessarily used to distunguish bottom "two", it is used when a contestant finds out they are safe as another contestant finds out they are eliminated. See Nikki McKibbin in round 1 of season 1, Anthony Federov and Scott Savol in the Top 7 of season 4, Elliott Yamin and Ace Young in the Top 8 of season 5, and Syesha Mercado and Carly Smithson in the Top 8 of Season 7. The white background is used when a bottom 3 contestant is sent back to the couch before they announce who is eliminated (like usual). The case with Allison this week is the same as Nikki's in the first week of season 1. MarkMc1990 (talk) 21:02, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

My opinion is the darker gray is the eliminated contestant, lighter gray is the bottom 2 contestant(s) and no color is the bottom three contestant. The weird exceptions noted above of the Top 7 in season 4 and the Top 8 in season five should stay the way they are with one dark and two light. For the Top 10 in season 1 and the Top 7 in season 8 where two people are eliminated it should be two dark and one no color, since both Nikki and Allison were in the bottom 3 but not in the bottom 2. Your definition "...when a bottom 3 contestant is sent back to the couch before they announce who is eliminated (like usual)." would cause changes to even bottom two, except top 6.2 in season six and top 13 in season 8 were two contestants were eliminated and the only ones announced, because the person would not be sent back to the couch before the other person was eliminated. So in conclusion, my opinion is to keep everything the way it is now in the charts but to change Nikki's color and Allison's color to no color. Aspects (talk) 16:50, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Well the way I kind of see it is, the closer they are to being eliminated, the darker the shade should be. Being 3rd to last when 2 go home (like the cases of Nikki and Allison) is essentially the same principle as being second to last when 1 goes home. And for that reason, I believe the shading should reflect that. MarkMc1990 (talk) 20:32, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Semi-Protected

Shouldn't this page be semi-protected?

I Seek To Help & Repair! (talk) 03:10, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Adam Lambert

Lambert auditioned for the eighth season of American Idol in San Francisco, California. During his initial audition, he sang "Bohemian Rhapsody". In the semifinals, Lambert was voted into the Top 13, joining fellow Group 2 performers Allison Iraheta and Kris Allen. Lambert and Allen became roommates in the Idol mansion, with Allen stating it was due to their neatness.[5]

During Michael Jackson week, he sang "Black or White" leading to praise from all four judges, with Paula Abdul predicting that he would go on to the finals.[6] The following week, Lambert sang a version of "Ring of Fire". While Randy Jackson, DioGuardi, and Abdul all liked his performance, Cowell called it "indulgent rubbish".[7] On Motown night, Lambert distanced himself from his rocker persona, singing a slowed down, acoustic version of "The Tracks of My Tears". The judges all liked it, and Smokey Robinson, the week's mentor and the original singer-songwriter, gave Adam a standing ovation. For his Top 8 performance, Lambert sang the 2001 Gary Jules arrangement of "Mad World". Because the show had exceeded its time slot, only Cowell gave a critique, which he did by simply giving Lambert a standing ovation. During the results next night, the other judges agreed that a standing ovation was the best critique of Adam's performance.[8] For his second Top 7 performance, Lambert sang "If I Can't Have You", delivering what DioGuardi described as his "most memorable performance", while Cowell described his vocals as "immaculate". Abdul was reduced to tears, with host Ryan Seacrest joking that Lambert had melted her into a "pool of Abdul".[9] In the Top 4, Lambert was the first to sing, performing "Whole Lotta Love". Cowell commented, "that was one of my favourite performances... nobody can top that now", while Abdul, punning on the song's title, described Lambert's performance as "a whole lotta perfect".

Kiss performing with Lambert at the American Idol Season 8 Finale.Season 7 American Idol winner David Cook stated that Lambert and Allen are his favorites of Season 8.[10] Country music singer and actress Reba McEntire has echoed the same opinions, also adding Iraheta to her list of favorites.[11]

Photos of Lambert kissing a man were shown and discussed by conservative commentators on The O'Reilly Factor; they agreed that the images would likely have no impact on the competition because the focus remains on the singers' talent.[12] Lambert confirmed that the photos were of him, stating he had nothing to hide and has always been open about his life.[13]

For the top three show, Lambert chose to sing at his alma mater, Mt. Carmel High School.[14] While there, he performed both Michael Jackson's "Black or White", and Tears for Fears' "Mad World."[15] After his performance, San Diego mayor Jerry Sanders declared May 8 "Adam Lambert Day."[16]

On May 20, 2009, Lambert was announced as the runner-up for the eighth season of American Idol. Lambert performed a medley with rock band Kiss during the final episode. His version of the winning single "No Boundaries" was later released on iTunes alongside American Idol winner Kris Allen's version.

He was the runner up in american idol this year (2009) season 8 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jn0054 (talk • contribs) 19:14, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Simon Cowell ... creator?

I don't understand why this article says that Simon Cowell is the creator of AI. There has never / will ever be a reliable source for this because it is not the case. The show was created by Simon Fuller as Pop Idol with some additional development by Simon Jones of Fremantle then Nigel Lythgoe when Fuller brought him in as head of 19TV. Cowell went with Fuller and Lythgoe to help pitch AI in the US but he had nothing to do with creating the show. Nowhere is he listed as a creator. Surely the show's credits would list him if this was the case. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Djcamp (talk • contribs) 22:30, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Contestant table

Someone keeps adding a long table showing each season and the order of finish for the final 12 contestants. It's actually a rather nice table ... except that all the information in it is already present within the article itself. Editors keep removing it as redundant, but people keep putting it back, using the excuse "well, it was always there before, so why get rid of it now?". So to avoid an edit war, I've decided to open the question here. Do we really need two sets of tables showing the same information? If not, which info do we remove? --McDoobAU93 (talk) 19:59, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

I seriously think that we should not remove the table and remove the other information. The long version of the table is positioned off to the side, so it really does not take up too much space, plus it has links to the individual contestants for each season. - Cartoon Boy (talk) 10:09, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Redundant information is just that: redundant, ergo, unnecessary. I would be okay with it if it has a show/hide feature (with it automatically on hide) on the box. But we don't need to repeat information. –Turian^talk 15:34, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

I was one of the editors who removed the table. The names/dates in the deleted table are listed in the other tables in the article. Part of me prefers the streamlineness of the deleted table but each of the table provides more information that the deleted table does not. I am for keeping either the other tables or the deleted table because the article is pushing 89k and could still be pared down more. If enough editors here feel the other tables are redundant since that information is already listed in the individual articles, then I will go along with that. Aspects (talk) 19:09, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Victoria Beckham

It was revealed today in the Manchester Evening News (Friday August 7 2009) that Victoria would be making a 'one off' appearance on the show as a judge, but she won't be replacing Paula Abdul. Somebody wanna put this info in? --Flashflash; 15:43, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

It is already on the season 9 page, where it should be. It is possible to add it to the season 9 summary on this page, but it shouldn't be added to the info box (there have been numerous guest judges). –túrian^patois 17:45, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

The information belongs in the main body of the season 9 article, and only would belong in this article if there was a sentence saying they have used celebrity judges for auditions or for theme weeks. Aspects (talk) 18:53, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

I only said for this article if it was in the season 9 summary, not the intro or anywhere else, since the setting is different with Abdul's leaving. –túrian^patois 19:03, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Bottom group numberings

I am starting a discussion here to avoid having an edit war. The bottom three tables have been stable for a while now, but AndIharve has changed some of the numbers of the times a contestant was in the bottom. Before, if a contestant was in the bottom by themselves when they were eliminated or were eliminated as the runner-up, that week was included in the parenthesis for the number of times they were in the bottom. AndIharve's edits would not included these weeks in the parenthesis.

These changed Nikki McKibbin from 6 to 5, Justin Guarini from 2 to 1, Kimberley Locke from 5 to 4, Jasmine Trias from 4 to 3, Diana DeGarmo from 4 to 3, Vonzell Solomon from 4 to 3, Bo Bice from 2 to 1, Elliott Yamin from 4 to 3, Katharine McPhee from 3 to 2, LaKisha Jones from 2 to 1, Blake Lewis from 2 to 1, Brooke White from 3 to 2, Jason Castro from 2 to 1, Syesha Mercado from 6 to 5, Allison Iraheta from 4 to 3 and Adam Lambert from 2 to 1. Per WP:BRD, I am going to revert back to the older version until/unless there is a consensus here to make the changes. Aspects (talk) 06:58, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Personally, I feel that is they were the runner up, they should not have an additional increase. The others, yes. –túrian^patois 07:00, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Turian. Strangely, the runner-ups who were never in the bottom three (Clay Aiken and David Archuleta) both have no number next to them, but the others have an additional number for being eliminated in the final 2. (For example, Adam Lambert has (2) - one for the final 5 week, and one for the final 2 week. Im going to change it back down for now, but if people want to put them back up, Aiken and Archuleta should both have (1) after their names. (Kyleofark (talk) 13:57, 7 March 2010 (UTC))

New Judge

In season nine of American Idol, the Judge Paula Abdul, will no longer be judging. SHe will be replaced by the talkshow host, Ellen D. Edwardgirl12 (talk) 21:33, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

American Idol Auditions

It was stated that the auditioners in the early seasons went through a two step screening process with only a couple of hundred making it through to the 3 official judges. That sounds logical. However, the article said that in later seasons, ALL the applicants got sent through to the judges. I find this impossible to believe. Many cities have 10,000 applicants. The judges are there only a few days, but even if it's longer, there is no way they could see all those people. They let the singers sing longer now, even tho some are awful, so at 5 minutes minimum per person, that's only 12 an hour. So you do the math. I can only think that the applicants are still pre screened. What amazes me is how or why some of the people make it through the pre screening when they are so awful. They must be let on through to make things "Interesting" and supposedly more entertaining. Sure is annoying and they are taking a spot that a better singer should have had!

      Anyone have any more information about this? 

Thanks. Barbara Guilliams 208.191.143.89 (talk) 19:31, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

Season table

Would anyone be opposed to inserting this table in the article, preferably at the top of the "season overview" section?

Season	Broadcast from	Number of contestants			Winner	Runner-up	Other finalists (in order of elimination)
		Tickets to Hollywood	Semifinalists	Finalists
One (2002)	June 11, 2002 – September 4, 2002	121	30	10	Kelly Clarkson	Justin Guarini	Ejay Day, Jim Verraros, A.J. Gil, Ryan Starr, Christina Christian, R.J. Helton, Tamyra Gray, Nikki McKibbin
Two (2003)	January 21, 2003 – May 21, 2003	N/A	32	12	Ruben Studdard	Clay Aiken	Vanessa Olivarez, Charles Grigsby, Julia DeMato, Corey Clark, Rickey Smith, Kimberly Caldwell, Carmen Rasmusen, Trenyce, Josh Gracin, Kimberley Locke
Three (2004)	January 19, 2004 – May 26, 2004	N/A	32	12	Fantasia Barrino	Diana DeGarmo	Leah LaBelle, Matthew Rogers, Amy Adams, Camile Velasco, Jon Peter Lewis, Jennifer Hudson, John Stevens, George Huff, LaToya London, Jasmine Trias
Four (2005)	January 18, 2005 – May 25, 2005	N/A	24	12	Carrie Underwood	Bo Bice	Lindsey Cardinale, Mikalah Gordon, Jessica Sierra, Nikko Smith, Nadia Turner, Anwar Robinson, Constantine Maroulis, Scott Savol, Anthony Federov, Vonzell Solomon
Five (2006)	January 17, 2006 – May 24, 2006	171	24	12	Taylor Hicks	Katharine McPhee	Melissa McGhee, Kevin Covais, Lisa Tucker, Mandisa, Bucky Covington, Ace Young, Kellie Pickler, Paris Bennett, Chris Daughtry, Elliott Yamin
Six (2007)	January 17, 2007 – May 23, 2007	169	24	12	Jordin Sparks	Blake Lewis	Brandon Rogers, Stephanie Edwards, Chris Sligh, Gina Glocksen, Haley Scarnato, Sanjaya Malakar, Phil Stacey, Chris Richardson, LaKisha Jones, Melinda Doolittle
Seven (2008)	January 15, 2008 – May 21, 2008	162	24	12	David Cook	David Archuleta	David Hernandez, Amanda Overmyer, Chikezie, Ramiele Malubay, Michael Johns, Kristy Lee Cook, Carly Smithson, Brooke White, Jason Castro, Syesha Mercado
Eight (2009)	January 14, 2009 – May 20, 2009	149	36	13	Kris Allen	Adam Lambert	Jasmine Murray, Jorge Núñez, Alexis Grace, Michael Sarver, Megan Joy, Scott MacIntyre, Lil Rounds, Anoop Desai, Matt Giraud, Allison Iraheta, Danny Gokey
Nine (2010)	January 12, 2010 – May 26, 2010	181	24	12	TBD	TBD	Eliminated: Lacey Brown Still in the running: Didi Benami, Crystal Bowersox, Lee Dewyze, Andrew Garcia, Casey James, Aaron Kelly, Michael Lynche, Siobhan Magnus, Paige Miles, Katie Stevens, Tim Urban

I feel the article would benefit from the table, because with so many seasons, this is the most simple way to organize the basic information about the seasons in one convenient, easy-to-read manner. Otherwise, someone looking for such information has to read over the very long article and individual season articles to find it. Most other reality shows with multiple seasons have similar tables on their main pages, see America's Next Top Model, So You Think You Can Dance, Dancing With the Stars, Survivor, Big Brother, The Bachelor, etc., to name a few. Let me know what you think. MarkMc1990 (talk) 21:54, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

The table is unnecessary because the vast majority of the information in the table is already located in other tables/sections in the article. The American Idol article has paragraph descriptions for each of the seasons where this information can be found. The other articles use these tables as navigational tools because instead of describing each season. I could also point that I know Top Chef, Project Runway and Shear Genius used to have tables that were changed to season descriptions.The only information not listed in the article is the number of tickets to Hollywood, which to me is useless trivia especially since we do not have that information for two of the seasons. This article is already pushing 100,000 bytes and this table would add another 6,000 bytes when it just repeats information. Aspects (talk) 22:03, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

American South

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Map_of_USA_with_state_names_2.svg

Map of the USA, on this website, clearly showing that Arizona is one of the Southern states. It touches our SOUTHERN border of Mexico, its further south than three Southern states, its capital and two largest cities are further south than Atlanta, Richmond, Nashville, Birmingham, Little Rock, Charlotte, Raleigh, etc.

Someone keeps changing this erroneously. The article either needs to accurately mention Sparks' southern roots or needs to be clarified to mention the SouthEAST and not, the American SOUTH. —Preceding unsigned comment added by FreddyPickle (talk • contribs) 02:24, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

I think that map says it all. American South is an accepted term that does not include the western states. The names are traditional: note that the "midwest" is wholly contained in the eastern half of the country, for example.—Kww(talk) 03:35, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

It stems from when America was in a Civil War, where the South is the states shown in the image. Arizona is not a southern state. –Turian (talk) 06:11, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

The map does say it all. Arizona is clearly in the Southern United States.

More importantly, David Cook is from the Midwest and this article is dated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by FreddyPickle (talk • contribs) 01:01, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Stop your disruptive edits. Arizona is clearly a Western state. And David Cook is from Texas, which is clearly a Southern state. Are you even from America? If you were, you would know your regions. –Turian (talk) 01:04, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Yes, of course I'm from America, look at my ip address. Please, quit your disruptive edits. Arizona is clearly in the Southern United States. Look at a map and quit your vandalism. More importantly, David Cook is from Missouri, not Texas. If you're going to include a Midwestern state among your "southern states", then you shouldn't have any problem including Arizona.

Your subjective attitude about this article is ridiculous, please quit with the vandalism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by FreddyPickle (talk • contribs) 03:54, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

As a non-American looking at the map, looking at the Arizona article and looking at the Southwestern United States article - it seems that Arizona is a Southern state, if you assume that Southwestern states are also Southern. I know nothing of US history and don't know much about the political connotations of being called a Southern state, but when it comes to compass points, it looks like a southern state to me. カンチョーSennen Goroshi ! (talk) 14:26, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Are you even looking at the map? That huge junk on the bottom right is the South, from Texas to Delaware. This shouldn't even be debated. The multiple maps on the wiki explicitly show and state what constitutes a Southern state. To say otherwise is just ridiculous. –Turian (talk) 14:32, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I am looking at the map and just because you don't agree with my opinion, there is no need for you to be anything other than polite in your response to me. I was trying to make the point that something in the Southwest, is also in the South. カンチョーSennen Goroshi ! (talk) 14:41, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

And my point is that you are wrong. It isn't an opinion. It is fact. The South, as I have stated multiple times, is derived from the civil war mentality in the 1860s, when Arizona and New Mexico weren't even states. The South were the states the left the union, and the word as maintained its definition to this day. Arizona is a Western or Southwestern state. The American South ends at Texas. –Turian (talk) 14:47, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

I think it would Turian could communicate his point better if he were a wee bit polite about it. Yes, Arizona, being in the Southwestern U.S. is in fact in the south. Of America. So yeah, of course someone could look at the map of the U.S. and reasonably conclude that Arizona is a southern state. Of course, you and I know that "the south" and The South (and "southern U.S." and "Southern") are different. One is purely geographic and the other is a cultural designation, and you obviously mean the latter when you say "The South" and "Southern".

It doesn't help to tell people "You're wrong", especially when they're not technically wrong, and "clearly" when there's room for disagreement. Even if you're right (or convinced yourself you're right), it's hard to get people to see your way if you act like a dick. Mosmof (talk) 19:59, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Sorry (not really), but if you can't catch massive implications from a map that designates each state as a part of a region, with SOUTH being placed on the map where it is obviously seen, then you do not need to be editing WP in the first place. Yeah, they are wrong. Arizona is in the south, but it is not in the South. There is a massive difference, and the article clearly differentiates it. –Turian (talk) 20:24, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Turian, you're as uncouth as you are ignorant. Sennen Goroshi isn't even an American and he knows you're wrong. Arizona is a southern state. You're under the impression that only states that were part of the Confederacy are considered Southern. This is as ridiculous as it is ignorant. And on the topic of ignorance, Arizona was a Confederate Territory and fought on the side of the Confederacy. More importantly, you're just being a jerk about this. Arizona is clearly a southern state. Anyone except someone with emotional interest in this (such as yourself) can clearly see this.

You keep using a wikipedia article to prove your point. This is circular logic. I've even linked wikipedia maps proving my point. Here is a map off of a non-wikipedia site:

http://www.map-of-usa.co.uk/images/usa-politcal-map.jpg

This map clearly shows that Arizona is in the South. You have some serious issues and its obvious you have some emotional interest in this. If anyone should be banned from making this silly edits, it should be you. Try approaching this with a little objectivity instead of your tantrum-like internet rage. —Preceding unsigned comment added by FreddyPickle (talk • contribs) 00:44, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

If you would actually listen and take your head out of your ass, you would see why I am right. Arizona is in the southern part of the US. However, it is not a part of the American South. Are you going to ignore that article as well? As Mosmof put it, it is a cultural designation. New Mexico is not a part of the American South. California is not a part of the American South. Arizona is not part of the American south. This is ABC linguistics. Maybe your block will enlighten you. –Turian (talk) 00:54, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Arizona is definitely not a Southern state. See the map at File:US_Southern_states.png if the map above wasnt enough to convince you. If you insist Arizona be included in the South, then you must believe that the map on the Southern United States article and the article itself are wrong. —Soap— 00:58, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

And since you, Freddy, seem so unwilling to look at the article:

As defined by the United States Census Bureau,Official Map the Southern region of the United States includes sixteen states. Thirty-six percent of all U.S. residents lived in the South, the nation's most populous region. The Census Bureau defined three smaller units, or divisions: The South Atlantic States: Florida, Georgia, Maryland, North Carolina, South Carolina, Virginia, West Virginia, and Delaware The East South Central States: Alabama, Kentucky, Mississippi and Tennessee The West South Central States: Arkansas, Louisiana, Oklahoma, and Texas

Do you see Arizona listed anywhere in that list? –Turian (talk) 01:02, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Per Wikipedia consensus (and most every other consensus there is), Arizona never has been in what is commonly called the Southern United States. It is sometimes considered to be in the Southwestern United States, which may be where you are confused (and it doesn't help that Texas and Oklahoma are sometimes included in that grouping as well). All that said, your edit-warring is not helping your cause, a lost cause that it is. --McDoobAU93 (talk) 01:02, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

The real problem with this content dispute is that both FreddyPickle and Turian were both edit warring and reverting each other under the claim of vandalism. While both of them made three reverts in a 24 hour period, none of their edits were vandalism. Aspects (talk) 01:10, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, but I was not vandalizing, mainly since my point was pounded into his head after a week. Removing or changing sourced info is vandalism when it contradicts such sources. –Turian (talk) 01:18, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

I said neither of you were vandalizing but you were each reverting each other claiming the other one was vandalizing. Per Wikipedia:Vandalism: "Any good-faith effort to improve the encyclopedia, even if misguided or ill-considered, is not vandalism." Aspects (talk) 02:20, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Tuian, your constant revisions are vandalism. There is no doubt about it. I've shown you on a map of the United States that Arizona is in the south. You refuse to admit this. Maybe you don't know how to read maps properly. This further suggests that you probably shouldn't be editing things on this web page to begin with. You've gotten quite emotional about this article, and that emotion is blurring your better judgement.

Wikicommunity -- Keep in mind I wasn't the one that started the edit war, this immature "editor" Turian was. I've linked stuff from wikipedia and from other sources proving that Arizona is a southern state. All he has done is point to wikipedia article that he probably wrote himself. It appears that everyone in the country knows that Arizona is a southern state but him and a few other wikipedians. To reiterate...here is a map of the United States. Please note that it is clearly a southern state:

http://www.united-states-map.com/usa-map.gif —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.239.186.1 (talk) 18:07, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

In US usage (which is not always logical and therefore doesn't necessarily follow the map), the "South" is states like Georgia, Alabama, Tennessee, etc. Arizona and Texas are in what is called the "Southwest". More to the point, the Wapo article cited connects American Idol with southern culture (i.e. "y'all" is southern dialect). Arizona is different. Finally, neither of the sentences being swapped in and out of the article are actually backed by cited source. So it's probably best to just remove it altogether. Anyway, stop edit warring and/or trolling. 66.127.52.47 (talk) 08:44, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

@Turian, I did provide a reason, it's a trivial factoid. On top of which it is transient and could be invalidated at any finale. Mostly because it holds no significance what-so-ever. Even the citation regards the phenomenon as a quirk and meaningless. When a citation not only doesn't support but activly denies the position it's use to cite, that's a failure. Also because the lead is a summary of the article body and this fact is not expounded on in the article body thus there is nothing to support it's being in the lead (per WP:LEAD). Padillah (talk) 14:03, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

I think it would be trivial if we were only into the 2nd or 3rd season. However, we've had 8 winners and 7 are from the Southern United States ... I would say that is rather notable. That said, you are right that the results of this season could easily change the statement's significance, or it could reinforce it. The perceived "southern bias" has been documented in the news media, so I think a source could be found to support it. However, is a specific source here necessary, when a search of each winner's article would reveal their hometown and thus confirm the statement's accuracy (although that does sound like using Wikipedia for a source for a Wikipedia edit, which is frowned upon). --McDoobAU93 (talk) 14:13, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

First off, the article that is cited was written Aril 16, 2006 which means it doesn't even take the winner of season 5 into account. It may happen to be true but that is what is called synthesis taking two facts and mushing them together to make a new third fact. Also, what you suggest is called original research, if we do the research then it's not third-party. Neither argument deals with the fact that this fact is not explored in the body of the article so summarizing it in the lead is not appropriate. Padillah (talk) 14:24, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

OK, let's raise the stakes a bit. Let's say someone found a reliable source discussing the propensity for the show to have winners from the south. Where should that go in the article, under what subheading? I'm looking at it and I don't see any place immediately for it to go. Would you be willing to compromise if said source was recent and itself said it was notable? --McDoobAU93 (talk) 14:42, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Before we get too carried away, I just want to point out, these are not my rules, they are Wikipedia policy. That being said I have no problem including anything that meets policy. I would see it in the "Overview" section stating that "as of season X there have been Y many winners from Z geographical region". I still don't think it needs to be in the lead, but I don't think several things need to be in this lead. 6 paragraphs is a little bloated, but we'll deal with that later. Let's see what we can find that's more current than season 5 and states what we need. Padillah (talk) 14:57, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

This is more a question of WP:UNDUE than WP:OR. This comes very near WP:OR#Routine calculations. Think: if this were an international competition, would you have a problem stating "six out of seven winners have been French"? Probably not: it's an easily verified statement. The problem is that without outside commentary, we can't state whether it's an indicator of bias or a statistical anomaly, because making that classification would WP:OR.—Kww(talk) 15:05, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

France is a lot more geographically stable area than "the American South". some sources list Texas, some don't... but that's a different battle, I do see your point. We've still got UNDUE to deal with, even if we get a RS. Does a trivial fact like this belong in the lead? Even the current citation calls it trivial coincidence. Padillah (talk) 16:05, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

After doing a little more research I agree even less with this fact being included, much less it's being right. As has been mentioned above there is the problem with Jordan Sparks being born in AZ and raised in NJ, neither of which are southern states. Then we have the problem of David Cook who was born in TX but raised in MO. You could say we go by birth place but where does that leave Ruben Studdard who was born in Germany? There's too many inconsistencies to infer a concrete reliable fact out of this. I think we just need to strike it out. There's no way everyone fits into a neat little package. Padillah (talk) 16:21, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Compromise: I removed the sentence from the lead-in, but at the same time I decided to be bold and create a new subheading discussing the show's geographical bias. It's well-sourced with statistics, industry quotes, etc. Take a look and see what you think. --McDoobAU93 (talk) 17:43, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

At the time of the Civil War, slavery was legal in both Missouri and Arizona Territory. The existance of slavery at that time is one of the countless ways to define "The South". By that definition, both Sparks and especially Cook could be called Southern. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.123.10.21 (talk) 03:26, 5 May 2010 (UTC)